Skip to main content

Continuing Negotiations

  • Chapter
Joseph II and Bavaria
  • 45 Accesses

Abstract

It had now become clear that Karl August of Zweibrücken would not be won over with a loan any more than he had been won over by the Golden Fleece six years before. But this was not of much moment so long as it had not proved possible to reach an agreement with Karl Theodor. On this thorny subject Lehrbach reported in the beginning of October that he had twice more talked with the Elector. 1 The old arguments were repeated on both sides, with Karl Theodor again bridling at the idea of giving up the Upper Palatinate. At one point he indicated that he might change his mind on this point if he were to be given the districts of Falkenstein and Ortenau in addition to the Netherlands but Lehrbach refused to entertain this notion. Then the talk turned to Luxemburg, Limburg and Namur. With respect to the first, Karl Theodor argued against the advisability of exchanging it for Salzburg and Berchtesgaden. The consent of France was absolutely necessary if the exchange were to go through, and what could this be bought with if not Luxemburg? Limburg he could not give up because it was the only bridge between the Netherlands and Jülich and Berg. He did seem willing to sacrifice Namur. Further, he still refused to assume the Bavarian debt, arguing that the Netherlands, too, were burdened with a sizeable debt. Also, the Elector refused point-blank to concede the Emperor the right to recruit troops in the Netherlands. And, finally, he insisted that nothing that had been discussed between himself and Lehrbach could be considered binding without the agreement of Karl August.

This is a preview of subscription content, log in via an institution to check access.

Access this chapter

Chapter
USD 29.95
Price excludes VAT (USA)
  • Available as PDF
  • Read on any device
  • Instant download
  • Own it forever
eBook
USD 39.99
Price excludes VAT (USA)
  • Available as EPUB and PDF
  • Read on any device
  • Instant download
  • Own it forever
Softcover Book
USD 54.99
Price excludes VAT (USA)
  • Compact, lightweight edition
  • Dispatched in 3 to 5 business days
  • Free shipping worldwide - see info

Tax calculation will be finalised at checkout

Purchases are for personal use only

Institutional subscriptions

Preview

Unable to display preview. Download preview PDF.

Unable to display preview. Download preview PDF.

Reference

  1. Lehrbach to Kaunitz, 2 Oct. 1784, reproduced by Hanfstaengel, op. cit.,212–18.

    Google Scholar 

  2. Vortrag of 4 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  3. Joseph to Catherine, 4 Oct. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Kath., 232–34.

    Google Scholar 

  4. Joseph to Cobenzl, 5 Oct. 1784, Beer Fiedler, I, 480

    Google Scholar 

  5. Joseph’s marginalium on Vortrag of 7 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  6. Joseph to Kaunitz, 9 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211. The suggestion to send Waldeck to Zweibrücken again had come from Kaunitz. Cf Kaunitz to Joseph, 7 Oct. 1784, Beer, Jos. Kau.,186–87.

    Google Scholar 

  7. Joseph to Lehrbach, 9 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Bayern 62.

    Google Scholar 

  8. Joseph to Mercy, 9 Oct. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 301–02.

    Google Scholar 

  9. Mitrofanov, op. cit., I,169 thinks that the letter was meant to be intercepted and was thus a way of easing the French into the secret, but this interpretation appears a little fanciful in view of Mercy’s explicit instructions to keep them from finding out if at all possible.

    Google Scholar 

  10. Kaunitz to Mercy, 16 Oct. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 306–07.

    Google Scholar 

  11. Report of Captain Volbergen, Gazette de la Haye,15 Oct. 1784.

    Google Scholar 

  12. Borgnet, op. cit.,58.

    Google Scholar 

  13. Joseph to Kaunitz, 19 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  14. Kaunitz to Mercy, 21 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Frankreich, Weisungen 167. 15 Magnette, op. cit., 145.

    Google Scholar 

  15. Louis to Joseph, 26 Oct. 1784, quoted in Pichler, loc. cit.,20.

    Google Scholar 

  16. Reviczky to Kaunitz, 26 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA St. K. Preussen Correspondenz 57. 18 Wien HHSA St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  17. Kaunitz to Joseph, 27 Oct. 1784, Wien HHSA St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  18. Joseph to Mercy, 29 Oct. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 322.

    Google Scholar 

  19. Wien HHSA St. K. Frankreich Weisungen 167.

    Google Scholar 

  20. Joseph to Leopold, 31 Oct. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Leo., I, 227–29. Cf. Gershoy, op. cit., 187.

    Google Scholar 

  21. Kaunitz to Count Metternich, 2 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. IYWeisungen ins Reich,32, in which the chancellor orders Metternich to see to the supplying of the Imperial troops on their passage through the Electorates of Cologne and Trier.

    Google Scholar 

  22. Mercy to Belgioioso, 6 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Frankreich, Berichte 172. 25 Cobenzl to Joseph, 12 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  23. Leopold to Joseph, 24 Nov. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Leo.,I, 231–35.

    Google Scholar 

  24. Joseph’s marginalium to this effect on Cobenzl’s Vortrag of 12 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 2.11.

    Google Scholar 

  25. G. Wolf, Österreich und Preussen (1780–1790),104.

    Google Scholar 

  26. Pichler, loc. cit.,21.

    Google Scholar 

  27. G. Wolf, op. cit.,106. Reviczky later reported that it was generally assumed in Berlin that if hostilities were to break out between Austria and Holland Frederick would lend active support to the Republic. Reviczky to Kaunitz, 27 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Preussen, Correspondenz 57

    Google Scholar 

  28. Magnette, op. cit.,161.

    Google Scholar 

  29. Joseph to Kaunitz, 7 Nov. 1784, Beer, Jos. Kath., 189–92.

    Google Scholar 

  30. Kaunitz to Joseph, 8 Nov. 1784, Beer, Jos. Kath., 192–93.

    Google Scholar 

  31. Mercy to Joseph, 6 Nov. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 326–38.

    Google Scholar 

  32. Wien HHSA, St. K. Vorträge 211.

    Google Scholar 

  33. Kaunitz to Mercy, 19 Nov. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Frankreich, Weisungen 167 eo Mittelberger, op. cit.,118, from Recueil des Instructions, Palatinat, VII

    Google Scholar 

  34. Quoted in Mittelberger, op. cit.,119.

    Google Scholar 

  35. Grosjean, op. cit.,110; Hanfstaengel, op. cit.,253 and Mittelberger, op. cit.,120, give

    Google Scholar 

  36. Grosjean, op. cit.,110.

    Google Scholar 

  37. Ibid,111.

    Google Scholar 

  38. Mercy to Kaunitz, 3 Dec. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 356.

    Google Scholar 

  39. Marie Antoinette to Joseph, 2 Dec. 1784, Arneth, Marie Ant, Jos Leo., 53–53. Hanfstaengel, op. cit., 254, completely distorts the sense of this letter, asserting that Louis had made the consultation of Frederick and the German princes a condition of French agreement.

    Google Scholar 

  40. Quoted in Grosjean, op. cit.,111–12.

    Google Scholar 

  41. Mittelberger, op. cit.,120.

    Google Scholar 

  42. Romantsov to Golitsyn, 5 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA Bay. 65b.

    Google Scholar 

  43. Karl August to Romantsov, 7 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA Bay. 65b.

    Google Scholar 

  44. Leopold to Joseph, 3 Dec. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Leo., I, 235–43. 53 Joseph to Leopold, 10 Dec. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Leo., I, 244–51. sa Reflexions de S.M.I. sur la Reponse à faire au Roy de France.

    Google Scholar 

  45. Kaunitz to Mercy, 17 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Frankreich, Weisungen 167. ss Joseph to Mercy, 17 Dec. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 360–61.

    Google Scholar 

  46. Joseph to Marie Antoinette, 17 Dec. 1784, Arneth Flammermont, I, 358.

    Google Scholar 

  47. Joseph to Lehrbach, 17 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Bayern 62.

    Google Scholar 

  48. Kaunitz to Lehrbach, 17 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Bayern 62.

    Google Scholar 

  49. Kaunitz to Baron Spielmann, 17 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, Grosse Correspondenz, 406.

    Google Scholar 

  50. Pichler, op. cit.,27.

    Google Scholar 

  51. Kageneck to Kaunitz, 24 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. England, 167. In cypher.

    Google Scholar 

  52. Golitsyn to Romantsov, 18 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, Bar. 65b.

    Google Scholar 

  53. Pichler, op. cit.,27. The Queen had prepared the ground for this interview by submitting a memorandum, prepared by Mercy, to her husband the evening before, after the meeting of the council of ministers, so that then she would have an opportunity to discuss it with him the next morning, before he saw Vergennes again. Cf Marie Antoinette to Mercy, 26 Dec. 1784, Arneth, Marie Ant, Jos. Leo.,62–63.

    Google Scholar 

  54. Wien HHSA, Bay. 65 b.

    Google Scholar 

  55. Romantsov to Golitsyn, 30 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, Bay. 65b.

    Google Scholar 

  56. Mittelberger, op. cit.,123. In view of what was said later it appears certain that Romantsov actually made this threat. In doing so he was exceeding his instructions.

    Google Scholar 

  57. Lehrbach to Kaunitz, 31 Dec. 1784, Wien HHSA, St. K. Bayern 62. It is, however, erroneous to state, as does Padover, op. cit.,327, that the Austrians promised Karl Theodor that his favorite natural son, Count Bretzenheim, would become Grand Prior of the Order of Malta. They could not have done so, as he had occupied that office since July 1782. What was at stake, rather, was the property of the Order, on which point Lehrbach probably indicated that concessions would be made. See Doeberl, op. cit.,II, 310–11.

    Google Scholar 

  58. Joseph to Catherine, 28 Dec. 1784, Arneth, Jos. Kath.,240–42.

    Google Scholar 

Download references

Author information

Authors and Affiliations

Authors

Rights and permissions

Reprints and permissions

Copyright information

© 1965 Springer Science+Business Media Dordrecht

About this chapter

Cite this chapter

Bernard, P.P. (1965). Continuing Negotiations. In: Joseph II and Bavaria. Springer, Dordrecht. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-94-015-7575-1_12

Download citation

  • DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/978-94-015-7575-1_12

  • Publisher Name: Springer, Dordrecht

  • Print ISBN: 978-94-017-0035-1

  • Online ISBN: 978-94-015-7575-1

  • eBook Packages: Springer Book Archive

Publish with us

Policies and ethics